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Post by Corsola's Cage on Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:55 pm

So.. Alpha is the highest standard tier, however, as you may know, it has a very low priority for balancing it out.
I'd like to share you guys my opinion on what threats should be looked at, and I"d like if you could give me your opinion on those, and what else do you believe to be banworthy or at least, suspected.

Let's start with the most obvious ones, the main offenders:


You should have expected this. Tapu Lele is an excellent A-grade wallbreaker, and can also be a late-game cleaner.
Due to Psychic terrain, it's Psychic STAB is nuclear boosted and amazingly spammeable, meaning that it can pretty much OHKO/2HKO anything that doesn't resist it. It's typing also comes with another great STAB, Fairy-type Moonblast, which gives it great coverage. Focus Blast is the last move on any set, and those 3 moves are pretty much the only obligatory ones for Lele, as they cover most of the metagame without much trouble. It can also use stuff like Shadow Ball, Hidden Power Fire, Thunderbolt, Taunt and Calm Mind.
Specs sets just flat out destroy Balance and Stall teams with ease, and if you try to rely on the fact it is choice-locked, stuff such as Expert Belt and Life Orb can cause trouble. Scarf sets easily dispose of offense, especially given the fact that priority doesn't work under the effect of it's terrain, making it even harder to revenge kill.
Overall, this can 2HKO the entire metagame and gives trouble to all playstyles alike, so I really believe it should get banhammered.

GRENINJA (Regular)

Greninja didn't change, it's great speed tier, good movepool and amazing ability in Protean still make it the perfect offensive support mon, capable of knocking out pretty much anything your team needs. The introduction of Battle Bond also indirectly boosted it's unpredictability, since Ash-Greninja's checks are dealt with by Protean Greninja, making it even harder to prepare for, since you can lure in mons like Tapu Fini, Tangrowth, Ferrothorn or Tapu Bulu to KO with the proper coverage move. Balance is the main playstyle troubled by this monster, however, Stall and Offense will not enjoy facing it if it has the proper set for the match up, and since it gets Protean, it's set can be difficult to predict, requiring the sack of one or two Pokémon in order to know it's set.

I find that those two are the most important, however, there are quite a few other threats I'd like to analyze:

LANDORUS (Incarnate)

Landorus-I isn't as obvious, and I don't think it is really banworthy as of yet, however, it still packs a punch.
It's speed tier is above average, and it has a strong movepool along with Sheer Force able to lure a multitude of threats with ease. Against defensive playstyles, it's movepool is enough to disrupt a good deal of defensive cores, along with Earth Power STAB, it can carry Knock Off, Rock Slide, Sludge Wave, HP Ice, Focus Blast, Psychic, U-turn, Calm Mind and even Gravity can help it against Balance and Stall, all of which have pretty much equal viability. It also gets Rock Polish, which can be overwhelming against offensive teams. It has also a good physical attack and good physical movepool with Edgequake, Swords Dance, the aforementioned Knock Off and U-turn, Superpower and the ability Sand Force, which makes it very, very strong when used in Sandstorm. Although I find the Special/Mixed sets the main troublesome part about it.
Like I said, not sure if banworthy, but definately worthy of taking a look at.

LANDORUS (Therian)

This is probably much more controversial, but I think the Therian form deserves a mention as well, it was already the best single Pokémon in ORAS and in SM, it has got even better.
Between it's sets, like defensive SR, offensive SR, Dual Dance or Scarf, Landorus-T is always one of the best pokémon at whatever it does, and seriously, with that splashability, there is very little reason to not use Landorus-T. While all of that is true since last generation, and isn't out of usual, this generation has given a nice gift to Landorus-T: Z-moves. That alone can push Landorus' impredictability over the roof. Usual counters like Skarmory and Tangrowth now are shaky checks due to Continental Crush and Supersonic Skystrike. Now battles against Landorus-T revolve around finding out it's set and hoping you have the correct checks for it. I find Dual Dance to be the main offender here, since it throws the past Lando checks out of the window and can destroy any playstyle with relative ease, and it isn't even much difficult to set up with Landorus, due to it's amazing ability, Intimidate, which makes an easy task for it to set up on opposing physical attackers. The Z Crystals further enhanced Landorus-T's unpredictability to a whole other level. Of course, Landorus doesn't come without it's flaws, though, it's defensive sets aren't that hard to lure and wear down, while the offensive sets can be discovered depending on the way your opponent plays it. Overall, I think it should have a look at, I don't think it is banworthy, but definately a good candidate for a suspect.

I'm lazy to give explanations on other mons, but I think if I list them it could be kinda self explanatory, so those are other mons that I definately think that should be on the radar:

Mega Metagross
Greninja (Battle Bond)
Corsola's Cage

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Post by Valentin7581 on Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:52 pm

Kso, here's my unreliable opinion!
Am I SERIOUSLY the only one who doesn't have that much problems with Tapu Lele? While I understand the reasoning behind it, given all the battles I had, Tapu Lele didn't do that great in practice compared to its appearance. Ask our friend Nick about it: In all our battles, Tapu Lele didn't do that much.

Its typing and coverage are really amazing, i'll give you that. And Psychic Surge is amazing too. But remember: it has flaws depending on the set. As long as a Dark type is on the opponent's side of the field, Tapu lele will hesitate spamming that "spammable Psychic STAB". Why? Because Psychic Terrain doesn't stop Pursuit Traps. Good thing it's neutral to Pursuit tho. Non-Choiced versions get mauled on by Megagross (Modest Expert Belt doesn't OHKO after Stealth Rock, meaning an easy Meteor Mash/Iron Head in the face.) Choice Scarf surprisingly lacks in power, even when Modest. Life Orb can be considered a countermeasure to this, but then there is another thing that kinda gives problem imo: Its speed. 95 Speed is good, yeah, but not enough. It still gets outpaced by a lot of threads in this metagame (and as I said before, Scarf is surprisingly not that powerful), and given its not that good physical bulk (which gives it actually less reason to spam Psychic when there is an opposing Dark type if you are Choiced), the damage you take can be really deadly, especially with the lack of reliable recovery. Also, daily reminder that while your opponent can't use priorities, you can't use these as well.

Okay, i've said all that, so it may look like I don't think Tapu Lele is ban-worthy, let alone suspect worthy. But its Calm Mind set actually looks threatening enough (despite lacking reliable recovery), even tho I didn't see it in action yet. Plus it is overcentralizing in a way, and it still has very few safe switch-ins for each sets. So i agree with an actual suspect

For the reference, I know you might consider me crazy, but Tapu Lele bears some similarities to Gen 5 Hydreigon. I just noticed it given the way I argued.

Greninja... The first ORAS ban I actually disagreed with, based on personnal experience. Yeah, it has Protean and amazing coverage, yes it's fast, but it's frail as hell, and piss easy to revenge kill. It also suffers from a bit of 4MSS imho. But ironically enough, I'm actually leaning towards its ban this time. After all, it actually happened to be indirectly boosted SuMo. (And no, I won't consider Battle Bond Greninja here, unlike Nick did). Why? Because of Z-Moves, and the introduction of Tapu Lele, stopping you from relying on priority to beat it. (Oh...) Its Water Shuriken also became usable now that it became special, meaning scarf user might get picked on in weakened enough.
Well, that was fast, but I actually find it a lot better in SuMo that in ORAS. I could agree with a suspect here!

I have no opinion on both Landos for now.

Most of you guys know how much I hate Megagross in competitive playing. It is the reason why I stopped playing ORAS OU for a bit. It gained only one boost there, and its name is the change of Mega Evolution mechanics, giving it immediate 110 speed. It still has the amazing coverage, and the really great power. Still has trouble getting around its usual counters tho. I won't go around that one that much, because I feel that If I do, i'll let my emotions take over. Is it really suspect-worthy? I don't think so tbf.

I have no opinion about Ash-Greninja for now.

Deoxys-Defense... I see the reasoning about it. It has amazing defenses and reliable recovery, but those are hampered by its pathetic HP and Psychic typing. It's a very amazing suicide lead, however. I guess that's the reason why it's here as a possible suspect? Okay. At least it can Skill Swap if the opponent has a Mega-Sableye I guess? I could consider a suspect, but i'm leaning towards disagreeing

Pheromosa hates priority, and gets OHKOed if it fails to OHKO back. We all know these facts. But WHO. ON THEIR RIGHT MIND. would expect Pheromosa to actually 6-0 everything by itself? Pheromosa is the best living late-game-cleaner there is here. Its speed is unrivaled in the tier, it has amazing coverage alone, has very few actual counters, which get either U-Turned on or hampered by SR (hello Gene pal!) bug/Fighting is amazing offensively imo. One of its main flaws is that it has to give up quite a bit in speed if it wants to boost its attack after a kill. But is that really a flaw when you can just pick up an entire team when they are weakened? I definitely agree with a suspect there. A quickban might be too harsh and fast, however.

..........Huh? Celesteela? No opinion, didn't even see it in action once.

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